Curse

Jeydra · Apr 17, 2011, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Thought I'll take some time to help you out before I jump off a logical cliff ...

Referring to your builds here (not the OP): http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=24

1. You're running Panic. Why? Heroes use Panic well enough, and you have multiple Mesmers. If you want Panic's effect, stick it on a hero and bring something more powerful yourself.
2. Mesmers have excellent energy management off almost the entire Inspiration line. If you don't want something ping dependent, you still have Auspicious Incantation. I would suggest you run that, together with AP / EBVAS / both YMLAD and FH or Cry of Pain.
3. BiP has its uses, but using it to power Mesmers isn't smart. As above, Mesmers have excellent energy management off almost the entire Inspiration line, and heroes don't have to worry about reflexes. Power Drain, Leech Signet, Drain Enchant, yada yada - these can all be used to power Mesmer heroes and power them well. This isn't a case of Mesmers not being very "active". It's a case of Mesmers not having that many powerful spells. Just consider the strong offensive, non-elite Mesmer spells. Mistrust is the only truly outstanding one, Cry of Frustration a little less so. Wandering Eye and Clumsiness are excellent against physical damage, largely subpar against everything else. Maybe Fragility, if you build your team around it. Maybe Accumulated Pain, which is a ranged Deep Wound source. And maybe Shatter Hex + Shatter Enchant, which however are more for the removal than for the damage. Everything else is just filler. You have space for energy management on Mesmer bars, use them.
4. Overkill defense. One pure healer, one semi-healer and one ST is overdoing it. A few options here. Swap out Xinrae's on the N/Rt for Icy Veins or something. Swap out the entire character for the D/N bar in this screenshot: http://img88.imageshack.us/i/gw065j.jpg/ The hero can use Blood Ritual quite effectively because he barely needs to cast anything anyway. Or swap out the entire character for a SoGM Rit, move the offensive Communing spirits to the SoGM and then spec into Restoration heals on the ST (see also points #5 and #6).
5. No Prot Spirit. Not good. I don't know if Shelter suffices to replace it, but that's because of the next point ...
6. You are giving up on one of the templates that deals twice the DPS of everyone else by using the ST. SoGM offensive Communing Rits deal huge DPS even before Painful Bond from the SoS Rit is included. Personally I need a very very very strong reason before I drop the SoGM. Of course you have mercenaries, so go ahead and just run all three of them. Or use the SoGM and convert the MM to the standard AotL bomber.
7. One hard res. Not good. Player bars in a 7H environment should more or less never include hard resses. You have far better things to be doing, since you have PvE skills. Slot two hard resses on your heroes instead. Personally I use two Death Pacts, but if you don't like Death Pact's chain wipe effect you could use one Flesh of my Flesh and one Death Pact.
8. You could give Outerworld's team a try.

Good luck.

LexTalionis · Apr 17, 2011, 11:05 AM // 11:05

*laughs* You know, you're right about that. Half the point of that picture was that I wasn't prepared for the area. I ended up taking the Hard-resurrection skill on myself because I was of the mind that "I'll might wipe quickly, and if I do, I'd rather just go back because I'm just testing these skills"

I already know (and have admitted) it's a terrible build for that area in the DoA - remember, I have near zero experience with it and that was my first time in there, ever.

I'm sorry about the response in that particular thread - to be honest, I liked your builds in the "speed clear Raisu Palace" thread, so I do think it may be worthwhile to listen when you give advice on team builds.

Auspicious Incantation - This energy management thing is almost entirely a hero problem (except when I'm using that Fevered Dreams build). I'd have no problems at all if heroes used Auspicious Incantation intelligently - do they? I'm worried they'll cast a 5 energy spell after using it, but it deserves testing. Mesmers *do* have energy management but it doesn't tend to play nice with other Mesmers. Waste Not, Want Not plays nice. Drain Enchantment doesn't if other heroes are bringing removal. Having a build where your energy management is 4x Power Drain when heroes are running Psychic Instability and Cry of Frustrations doesn't really work quite as well. I'm trying to find a happy medium. Auspicious, if it worked, would definitely fall under the "stacks properly" camp.

Panic- I run panic even though I don't use it most of the time. I've wondered why I do this instead of taking E-surge, but the times when I'm glad I brought it are enough. I could use it on a hero, but I don't usually micro heroes to open fights. It's usually a massed caster solution - Say I'm fighting 3 ether roars, which I know will open with Energy Surge that may or may not be disrupted because my interruption mesmers are out of range for a split-second. I could open with Mistrust, which prevents 1 of the E-Surges, or I can use Panic, which buys enough time for my Mesmers to run in and set up Mistrust on everything. I also know when Panic is absolutely important to keep up and when it can be ignored (single targets - heroes don't use it intelligently) It's... a playstyle decision. It probably should be looked into.

Soul Twisting does sacrifice a lot of the damage from Signet of Ghostly might, this being said, It's very easy to set up to pre-prot and it's not vulnerable to a lot of things protection prayers are (like the protection hero being stupid and trying to kite instead of sitting there and casting protection prayers). It's an acquired taste - I feel don't need the damage from Signet because I do have single target DPS from the mesmers and Signet takes a bit of time and about 3 or so spirits to set up before it becomes "good". The other problem with Signet of Ghostly Might is that I can't call targets for its damage, but Soul Twisting wouldn't be much better either, except Xandra can still spam defensive spirits.

To be honest, I was VERY skeptical about Soul Twisting until I actually tried it. I was surprised at Shelter actually being able to substitute for Protective Spirit (especially if you precast Shelter). The difference is that with Shelter up, I don't even notice Elementalist bosses on HM (like Borguus Blisterbark). Without it and with Protective Spirit, half my team is dead before I know what happened unless I get the drop on him (he patrols and I don't always have patience to wait for him). This being said, you are probably entirely correct about there being too much defense. I have to remedy this and I take your suggestions about it seriously.

Also with regards to Mesmer DPS: I believe Spiritual pain is vastly underrated. It's virtually a 5 second recast armor-ignoring nuke that does 79 damage and prevents my spirits from wasting time hitting other spirits or necromancer minions (though the latter is rare). It also forces enemy rangers to drop whatever they're doing and cast another binding ritual, which is a very silly move in the middle of PvE. I admit it doesn't look impressive on paper, but in Hard Mode, it frequently comes out to the equivalent of a less-expensive Lightning Orb. The other Mesmer spell that is stellar (and I keep on a hero bar) is Wastrel's Worry with Natural Resistance in Hard mode. It wears off almost instantly and is extremely fast and cheap damage (I say this from my experience of using it on my bar), out-damaging even Discord. Unnatural Signet is also a large plus, as it isn't a spell - which is actually occasionally relevant. Wastrel's Demise is hit or miss, which is why I run it myself - I know when not to use it while a hero wouldn't.

But seriously, enough with all that defending, the point I want to get across is that I -do- value your input and I shall take your advice seriously when I go back to Guild Wars tomorrow.

edit: By the way, I *did* give Outerworld's team a try - and I'm actually working on incorporating a few of the things I really liked about it into my build.

HigherMinion · Apr 17, 2011, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Spiritual Pain is also highly unlikely to achieve it's bonus trigger. It's more conditional than any enchant removal skills. Surely you must be referring to Unnatural Signet?

LexTalionis · Apr 17, 2011, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Not at all, Spiritual Pain's residual AoE that kills summons is very reliable provided you're fighting anything with spirits or minions and isn't picky about what it hits. It's unconditional, in that sense (even if you nuke a normal creature, it will still do the AoE, it just won't damage anything except summoned creatures)

I use it mainly for the single target damage, the bonus of it quickly killing any summoned targets is purely an extra. It's pretty noticeable in Factions, but works pretty well when enemies rangers dump spirits all over the map too (not too uncommon. Suffice to say, it's common enough that I do notice it.) - Your own spirits and minions are brainless and will frequently target enemy spirits/minions in battle when they're quite the last thing you want them to hit - Spiritual Pain (in multiples) quickly deals with all the annoyances and helps you put damage in the right place.

Unnatural Signet is neat, but Spiritual Pain recharges twice as fast since it's a spell. As a result, its dps to single targets is better (and less conditional than Wastrel's).

HigherMinion · Apr 17, 2011, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Not at all, Spiritual Pain's residual AoE that kills summons is very reliable provided you're fighting anything with spirits or minions and isn't picky about what it hits. It's unconditional, in that sense (even if you nuke a normal creature, it will still do the AoE, it just won't damage anything except summoned creatures)

I use it mainly for the single target damage, the bonus of it quickly killing any summoned targets is an extra. It's pretty noticeable in Factions, but works pretty well when enemies rangers dump spirits all over the map too (not too uncommon. Suffice to say, it's common enough that I do notice it.).

Unnatural Signet is neat, but Spiritual Pain recharges twice as fast since it's a spell.

I believe all mesmer skills recharge faster? Also, single-target damage skills are a waste of a mesmer's skill slot in PvE. As the player, you can finish off the remaining foes, but you want your heroes to prioritise in mass AoE pwnage at the start of the fight.

LexTalionis · Apr 17, 2011, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Nah, Fast Casting -recharge only affects spells, unfortunately. I wish it affected Signets though! (It still affects the casting time of signets, not the recharge)

Here: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Fast_casting
In PvE, each rank of Fast Casting decreases the recharge time for your Mesmer Spells by 3%.

My heroes still get off all their AoEs at the start of a battle, I keep them to the left so that the AoEs have priority over Spiritual Pain. Most of the AoEs have a recharge (Only the wastrels spells don't have significant recharges), so Spiritual Pain actually helps a lot when cleaning up.

Jeydra · Apr 17, 2011, 03:33 PM // 15:33

I didn't say anything specific about DoA. If building specifically against DoA for example, Shatter Hex would be pretty useful because some areas have hex overload.

Heroes should not use Auspicious. Not only are they uncertain which skill to use it on, heroes have superb reflexes and can use Power Drain / WNWN / Leech Signet / Ether Signet / Drain Enchant without problems. Use those.

If you rarely cast Panic why even have it on your skillbar? And if you're fighting those Ether Roarers, just lead with EBVAS and all problems solved.

You can pre-prot with Prot Spirit, and if you're getting hit Aegis generally solves the problem, but up to you if you prefer ST. Borguus Blisterbark can be done with just Prot Spirit; you just need a little bit of careful micro. Of course if you're lazy and don't want to micro then Shelter suffices, although it's possible that 7 hero builds can now charge right through the Burning Forest without micro and still survive. I haven't tried, I dont' know. The advantage of using Prot Spirit instead of Shelter is that you can use Prot Spirit on the MM (as opposed to Shelter, with which ST is pretty much mandatory), which saves you a hero slot to dedicate to damage.

Spiritual Pain is pretty weak. 79 single-target damage every 5s is just too low - Discord does 115 single-target damage every 2s and it's already pretty weak. It kills spirits, but if you want to do that it's better simply to use Gaze of Fury on one of the Rits. Killing minions? I'd much rather focus down the MM. You got the spike damage and you have the enchantment removal to bypass prots. I don't like Wastrel's Worry either. It's easily removed, few monsters have Natural Resistance and it drains hero energy dry very quickly indeed. But if they work for you by all means use it.

Good luck.

LexTalionis · Apr 18, 2011, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Jeydra:

Well, I've kind of tried Gaze of Fury a few times and the 20 second recharge really hurt it. Spiritual Pain has dual functionality, so I prefer it.

The problem with Spiritual Pain is that it's very easy to think "Oh, it's only 79 damage and insignificant" . The thing is it's quick to cast (thanks to Fast Casting) and it's usually used in conjunction with unnatural signet in the order Spiritual Pain > Unnatural Signet > Spiritual Pain, which kills single targets quickly. And unlike Discord, it isn't Elite (which is a huge bonus)

I'm not really sure what context it'd be considered weak in either, if Elementalists or Smiting Monks or Necromancers had a 5 energy 0.5 second cast 5 second recharge spell that did 79 unconditional armor-ignoring damage, wouldn't they find it pretty great? Most spells that do that amount of damage in HM end up costing 10-15 energy or have much longer recharge times or end up having some nasty drawback like Obsidian Flame(which is slower anyway). The closest non-elite I can compare it to is Necrosis, and I can't put that on my heroes.

LexTalionis · Apr 20, 2011, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Update: Well, the build definitely still needs work, but I managed to pull this off without consumables (was the Zaishen Daily).

Hard mode!

I've incorporated quite a few of the solutions you guys suggested (and stole the UA monk idea) and it's slightly smoother - although I'm having trouble with Heroes never casting Chaos Storm, so I removed it. Energy is still a hassle in the HM DoA, but Livia can usually keep up. I might test putting back Death Nova on her in the future. Note the horribly lacking energy management - nearly everything energy-related is "Leave it to Livia!".

I actually had to retreat with "Fall Back!" and micromanage because Soul Twisting is incapable of handling the final huge Earth Tormenter orgy just by itself (wiped twice trying!); so I guess that's kind of cheating.

If you're reading this, Outerworld, know if Fevered Dreams does any better? I'd test but I'm out of GW quota time for today.

The massive amounts of hex removal are because the last two slots on my Mesmers are meta-optional-slots and I just put in whatever skills I know will be really strong in the upcoming area. A little flexibility makes the build a lot stronger.

Outerworld · Apr 20, 2011, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Update: Well, the build definitely still needs work, but I managed to pull this off without consumables (was the Zaishen Daily).

Hard mode!

I've incorporated quite a few of the solutions you guys suggested (and stole the UA monk idea) and it's slightly smoother - although I'm having trouble with Heroes never casting Chaos Storm, so I removed it. Energy is still a hassle in the HM DoA, but Livia can usually keep up. I might test putting back Death Nova on her in the future. Note the horribly lacking energy management - nearly everything energy-related is "Leave it to Livia!".

I actually had to retreat with "Fall Back!" and micromanage because Soul Twisting is incapable of handling the final huge Earth Tormenter orgy just by itself (wiped twice trying!); so I guess that's kind of cheating.

If you're reading this, Outerworld, know if Fevered Dreams does any better? I'd test but I'm out of GW quota time for today.

The massive amounts of hex removal are because the last two slots on my Mesmers are meta-optional-slots and I just put in whatever skills I know will be really strong in the upcoming area. A little flexibility makes the build a lot stronger.

FD did fine when I tried it, the only change I made to the team build was to add an ST rit over the MB.

For the earth spawns, you can actually seperate them if you retreat and kill of the Darkness's one at a time.

If you really want the hex removal then bring Convert Hexes, BiP should provide the energy for it.

Gz for completing it though.

LexTalionis · Apr 21, 2011, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Gah, you can separate the Darknesses? I had no idea. That makes it so much easier! Thanks a billion for that tip (I was just killing all 25 of them at once in NM but that's quite impossible for me in HM).

Serves me right for not doing enough research on the area.

I know it's kind of a silly thing to say, but I'm falling out of love with Restoration, because heroes prioritise Xinrae or Warding over an actual heal.

Normally, protection is better than cure, but not if you're trying to abuse BiP. I'm thinking of running WoH instead of Restoration magic, or maybe something funny with WoH and UA Mimicry. Maybe a modified ER with Infuse Health and lose my overreliance on Dark Bond (which work great normally, but not for micro pulls needed in the DoA HM and is possibly one of the most underrated skills ever in my opinion). Since BiP does make Energy more trivial, I might just dump the Resto Necro for a dual-attribute Monk (I'd lose out on PwK's instant heals and Life though).

Also, Convert Hexes can't self-target, which is what has me worried (Hex Removal is just there to get rid of Scourge Healing/Enchantment since that causes major issues). Might use Deny Hexes instead, but for some reason I didn't have that skill unlocked. -_-

Thanks for the reply!

HigherMinion · Apr 21, 2011, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Deny works well with UA bars; Signet of Devotion, UA and Deny or such; free heals and loads of hex removal. If you bunch up and the scythes start coming- WoH won't be able to help everyone at once.

LexTalionis · Apr 22, 2011, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Deny works well with UA bars; Signet of Devotion, UA and Deny or such; free heals and loads of hex removal. If you bunch up and the scythes start coming- WoH won't be able to help everyone at once.

Yeah, I found out the hard way that I had no place to put WoH anywhere, but it still works really well now. Deny Hexes is great and I really like how the UA monk works well with Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom (Restoration Ritualists don't really benefit much from it).

As a side-note, I've taken a leaf out of another person's book and started putting Elemental Resistance on the squishier people. It's actually really good... Hero AI only uses it when it's relevant, uses it instantly and it doesn't drop your armour below 60. I just wish I could fit a Greater Conflagration into my build somewhere, but it seems to handle physical damage pretty fine at the moment (although I guess I could just use Physical Resistance if I'm that worried).

Edit: Oh my god, they just buffed Divine Healing and Heaven's Delight! I'm never removing that UA monk now.